Catalogue of arguments for the existence of God

No, you didn't state it was merely historical (even if you had of done you'd still face the exact same question begging asccusations). What you actually said was;

No way out down this road.

Method!

Is that really what milk means?

It is both historical due to its definition and a fact due to the evidence from history and logic. Still no circular arguments there and you and Blagsta are starting to be very obviously avoiding stating the circle clearly for all to see.

Of course it's historical. Yet that's not what you said. I demonstrated the circle very clearly yesterday.

a) Evolution is a historical fact
b) and so
c)I have no choice but to rely on second hand evidence or worse of my opening FACT a)

Of course you didn't demonstrate anything yesterday.

This is not circular reasoning - I am saying that historical facts, as a set of facts, are based on second hand (or worse) evidence and I have to rely on such evidence because Evolution is an example of a historical fact, but it is not historical facts in general and so it is not circular.

I did, I just did again, you started with your conclusion. As pointed out a few times now, this is commonly known as begging the question. You then proceeded to argue that as your conclusion was true you were forced to rely on methods other than direct experience to show that it was true. That's circular. You do the same above. You're too slow to understand this though - and you're certainly too slow to see why this is religious thought.

I give up.

Someone better tell my daughter!

Absolutely false. You do have a point about the various posters who just tried to disrupt the thread, and I admit that they managed to sidetrack us occasionally. And it is true that the Mods binned the thread just as I was approaching the climax. But I certainly did work through my proof in its entirity. I suggest you re-examine the thread in greater detail.

Of course I believe in evolution. But I do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. Most theories of evolution are quite compatible with the existence of the Creator.

Yes they can! Why do you have a bee in your bonnet about this issue? Why shouldn't they be Christians?

Which theory of evolution do you think is historical?

Er Phil, it's not all about you you know. This is a discussion I was having with someone else. The bee in my bonnet is that the OP pretty much says gays can't be christian (read the thread before jumping in), but is dancing round the issue. Whatever I think about any religion, a bigoted, exclusive and hateful religion is obviously far worse. I think gays should be free to be a part of any religion they see fit. I still won't think they are doing the right thing, but that's up to them, as long as they don't act like arseholes, who cares?
There are those who take the bible 100% as the word of god that must be followed and will not deviate, you obviously do not, so you are at least (for all your sins) not quite as foolish.

Does he frig. Have you read the thread?

Really? In all the back and forth with me he has said that he is ok with gays but can't understand why they would want to get married in a church.
He said that christians believe in the word of the bible and that to lie with another man in the bible is wrong, so why would a gay want to get married in a church?

Ha, actually shit I was wrong. I didn't mean the OP I meant John Cooper thread bumper. Apologies.

Odd that that thread was binned.

Yep. Especially the timing--just as I was about to clinch the argument once and for all.

Can anyone tell me if there is a god please?

And if there is, please can you tell me how to find it?

And then how will I know I've found it?

Been looking for a long time. Can't see it, can't find it. I'm worried that I must be blind. But I'm not. I can see very clearly. Just not any of those hundreds of gods out there I know must exist because so many people keep telling me they know that god exists... Which one is it? Where is it? I want to know.

Please > I can't bear it!

what are my religious views you seem to know ?

atheists i see , ime sure on the point of death you would pray to god as working in a hospice ive seen this many times by people who said they were athiests .

its really quite simple pray and mean it .

"There are no atheists in a lifeboat" - blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I can remember some years back, quite a lot of the most enthusiastic evangelists were ex-habitual criminals and / or addicts who had simply swapped one addiction for another...

You have to believe that in the end fear will get even us.

I am happy that you find solace in your faith. Good for you, but apart from Phil Dwyer who claims to be religious, there are few who I meet with any intelligence, who remain religious. those who claim to be religious have the vaguest versions possible.

That is not to say that there is not a place for faith in this story, it is just that the religious have attached humanist values to their dubious stories, and with the globalised world they have been found out.

The universe is purely deterministic from start to finish - we are simply an evolved ape the same as any other animal on this planet. No one can give an example of God doing anything against the laws of nature - not you, not Phil, no one, because there is no God, it is just Man pushing his arrogance as far as possible, trying to prove that things 'matter' in some way, when they don't.

You're religious. Apparently one of the few hidden in amongst the billions.

Fan-tast-ic. Not only does all milk come from cows, all animals come from apes

THIS IS EVOLUTION

What a reposte! - well that's me convinced then - let's all just whinge about how awful everything is while dreaming of a revolution which will never come.

Convinced of what? Your incoherence? Your stupidity? If you really think that all milk comes from cows and that all animals are descended from apes then you've just given the best argument against evolution i've ever read.

You don't really think that I said that, you are just being disingenious to avoid commenting on what I really said.

You don't think that you really said those things? Really?

We didn't evolve from apes.