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Apple sues Samsung for skanking iPhone design!

Discussion in 'mobiles and tablets' started by Kid_Eternity, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    No, it's not. You'd have to be on some specially strong drugs to mistake the S2 with the iPhone 4s.

    Apple didn't invent curved corners or flat screens, you know.
     
  2. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    In the case of the phones Im sure thats largely true, but since Samsung are apparently somewhat notorious for ripping stuff off I'm not going to resist heckling their designer. That you disagree is not surprising, and thats fine, I don't exactly think you are dead wrong, all this stuff is grey rather than black & white. For me it was the combination of the galaxy tab design, packaging and accessories such as the charger that made me unafraid to wade into this area in a somewhat sloppy manner. I don't think Samsung should be heavily punished for getting inspiration elsewhere, but nor do I think it should go unmentioned.

    Im not sure what it will take for Samsung to have an iconic product. To some degree the S2 probably is, and its not all Samsungs fault that they don't get the same media frenzy as Apple. But to do something truly iconic they need to add a little innovation of their own, and this isn't easy either since such devices are presently in the evolutionary rather than revolutionary phase.

    What does different design language mean anyway? And don't you think his comment about stuff needing to be timely is kinda interesting given the context?
     
  3. Kid_Eternity

    Kid_Eternity "You might be a lord but here comes the king."

    Read an interesting piece the other day (can't find the link at the mo) which showed that Apple repeatedly made approaches to Samsung prior to the law suites to sort this whole mess out. Had Samsung not been so arrogant perhaps this shit wouldn't have got this far?
     
  4. magneze

    magneze mnemonic beef

    The term "design language" sounds a bit wanky but there's some sense in it.

    Taking phone design from the last keyboard models before touchscreen phones really took off, there really wasn't very much way to go from a rectangle with round corners a screen and a keyboard to a rectangle with round corners a much bigger screen and a minimal keyboard of 1-4 buttons.

    So, how do you innovate in such a tightly specified space? Well then, design of the buttons themselves becomes important, the way the case looks, the edges of the case are important, the number of buttons. How the grilles for microphone and speaker look. How the camera bits look.

    In each one of those cases Samsung phones have a different look from the iPhone which as a whole combines into their phone design. To me, that is the design language. It completely makes sense as an argument against the lawsuit.
     
  5. Kid_Eternity

    Kid_Eternity "You might be a lord but here comes the king."

    Anyone that knows anything about design knows that the term and concept of design language actually had relevance...
     
  6. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    Indeed. There were also PDAs with more or less the exact same form factor as the iPhone so how Apple can make any claim on devices that are black, rectangular, have rounded corners with flat display screens centred on the front face surrounded by a bezel is utterly ridiculous.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    The S2 REALLY does not look anything like the iPhone 4S. Within the limitations of the smartphone genre, there's barely a single thing that is similar. The back is totally different shape and made of a totally different material. The sides are different. The front is different. The profile is different. No normal person is likely to go into a store to buy an iPhone 4S and accidentally come out with a S2.

    Most importantly of all, the S2 was technically miles ahead of Apple's offering when it was released. Still is just ahead now too, IMO.
     
  8. Cid

    Cid Degenerate Scum

    I can't believe you're still fixated on the 'literally mistaking' aspect of the whole saga... I don't think anyone agreed that would happen, it's just the bit of US law Apple felt they had a case under. Pretty sure it didn't apply to all their cases... The thing is, the original cases were against the S, which does look very similar to the 3g (or whatever it was), the SII cases I imagine piggybacked off that to an extent. And the design is very similar, any designer should be able to see that.

    Apple's LCD tech can only take it so far, and Samsung is already well established in the OLED market and has obvious advantages with other hardware, there phones tend to have more features too (as you know), I reckon they could (and in many ways have) outstrip Apple on innovation, but at the moment their actual design is basically derivative and a bit dull.
     
  9. magneze

    magneze mnemonic beef

    Of course the design is similar - once you make virtually the entire front of a rectangular round cornered phone into the screen then they're all going to look similar. The details are quite clearly different though.
     
    editor likes this.
  10. Cid

    Cid Degenerate Scum

    I posted various different phones earlier in the thread, there's a lot you can do with a limited form-factor.
     
  11. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    Completely different size. Different button array. Different branding. Different speaker grill. Different button shape. Different button placement. Different back shape. Different back texture. Different camera aperture etc etc etc.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Cid

    Cid Degenerate Scum

    :D

    They even have the same silver ring around the edge. I do realise they're not exactly the same, but fuck - can you really not see how similar those two designs are?
     
  13. tarannau

    tarannau Mongolian eyed

    It's wilful blindness at best, particularly given Samsung's longstanding habit of copying designs from other manufacturers. Christ, their sister company (run by a relative of this corrupt, sprawling chaebol) even put together a blatant smart cover rip off and there are plenty of examples of Samsung adverts and trade displays lifting off Apple logos and iPhone screens wholesale. It doesn't speak of a brand with a distinct self image and a genuine desire to promote its differences.

    Yes, it's hard to avoid some similarity but Samsung weren't even trying to distinguish their product, more adhere to the familiar design of the market leader as closely as possible. Most respectable companies wouldn't resort to that trick so repeatedly, on multiple product lines to boot.
     
  14. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    You mean like this?


    [​IMG]
     
  15. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    Except they created a better product, with a bigger screen and a design that you'd have to be very, very confused to mistake for an iPhone.
     
  16. Cid

    Cid Degenerate Scum

    We've covered that one.
     
  17. Cid

    Cid Degenerate Scum

    No-one on this thread is arguing that people are going to mistake a Samsung for an iPhone. No-one.
     
  18. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    So if they don't look similar enough for people to mistake them, what are you arguing about?
     
  19. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    Well I know what you mean but especially when I see some of the pictures on this thread, I struggle to think of it as a different design language. Its more of a regional dialect.

    The main thrust of this argument will just go around in circles but I know that if I were the Samsung designer and I wanted to be highly regarded, Id be trying to differentiate my stuff far more than they have done in recent years. Its not so easy right now, but next time tech leaps on I'd want to be there first, not playing second fiddle to Apple.
     
  20. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    The S2 differentiates itself from the iPhone 4s in many, may ways. It's thinner for starters and has a much bigger screen. And it's also one of the best selling smartphones ever released.

    I think I'd be happy with that if I was its designer.
     
  21. Cid

    Cid Degenerate Scum

    Apple brought the law suit against an overall design, in the US legal system the trade dress laws were the ones their lawyers thought covered that most easily, and their laws are worded around that basis of mistaken identity. This is not true of all the law suits or all country's design laws iirc.

    Seriously, read what you just typed - 'it's thinner and has a bigger screen'. That's your idea of differentiating a design? Lets look at some really simple objects... Since I've spent ages nattering with Quoad and the like about pens, lets look at them. A pen has one function (usually) and has to fit in your hand, not be too heavy and hold some kind of ink. pens range from this (iconic mass-manufacture):

    [​IMG]
    to this (hand crafted Japanes lacquer):

    [​IMG]

    There are thousands of different types in between from minimal:

    [​IMG]
    To chunky:

    [​IMG]

    Any number of technical pens, calligraphic pens etc. Many of them, despite fulfilling the same basic purpose and having the same basic form-factor, look completely different from one another. A restricted form-factor does not mean you can't have any number of different designs. Most design is restricted in some way; a good designer rejoices in restrictions, they frame your design, if design is unrestricted it's bloody hard. A great design is often a synthesis of of many designs that came before, a great design is not something that is mainly differentiated from another great design by being slimmer and having a larger screen.

    Again, Samsung are miles ahead of Apple in many, many ways, but their overall design is basically just a bit derivative.
     
  22. Kid_Eternity

    Kid_Eternity "You might be a lord but here comes the king."

    It's more than the ripping off of the phone style it's also the branding, check out Samsungs boxes, look at the way they have their devices in their promo shots you can clearly see the brand association at work. I don't think its wise to underestimate how that works for the consumer either, all this guff about people not being able to tell the difference is a big red herring, brand association is a powerful thing. And Samsung know it.
     
  23. Winot

    Winot Win not Whine

    Design law (at least in Europe) recognises the concepts you're all discussing - it uses the term 'design freedom'. Basically, if there's very little wriggle room (i.e. the designer is relatively constrained in terms of form factor) then you can get a registered design even if the differences between your design and existing designs are quite small. However, the rights given by your registration are also constrained.

    Everyone is comparing the phones, but that's not the test. The test is to compare the allegedly infringing phone with the registered design.

    It''s notoriously difficult to answer the question "does this design infringe this registration?". It's a problem both with the law and with perception. I once went to a leading QC for advice on a particular design infringment matter and he told me he didn't understand what the law meant. So I don't think we're going to get anywhere on U75.

    There's a lot of talk about the patent system being flawed but it's got nothing on the law of designs.
     
  24. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    And so it goes on with a trial by jury coming up in the US: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19022935

    Apple say:
    [​IMG]

    Samsung say:
    [​IMG]

    I've always argued that a lot of the the iPhone's design cues came from Sony, and Apple's own internal documents back that up:

    [​IMG]

    Personally, I wish these two would get their heads knocked together and just move the fuck on and get back to designing new products and innovating.

    More: http://www.phonearena.com/news/Sams...a-Sony-design-concept-floated-in-2006_id32687
     
  25. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

  26. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    US bias perhaps given the status of Jobs in his home country?
    Foss Patents take:
     
  27. Kid_Eternity

    Kid_Eternity "You might be a lord but here comes the king."

    The good thing that's come out of this is demystifying Apple's design with all the photos of prototypes. Love it when a corporations marketing is so effectively stripped away.:)
     
  28. Kid_Eternity

    Kid_Eternity "You might be a lord but here comes the king."

    Lol now this is a little suspect:

    Link.
     
  29. editor

    editor Like an ultra left hatboy on heat

    How's it any different to Apple copying Sony to such a degree that their prototype even had a Sony logo on it!

    It's how innovation has been driven for years and how Japan ended up producing so many great cameras after the war: copy, improve and innovate.
     
  30. Kid_Eternity

    Kid_Eternity "You might be a lord but here comes the king."

    Where did Apple copy a Sony device?
     

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