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a marxist history of the world- counterfire

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by barney_pig, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    Some fun may be had with the latest installment of this series on counterfuck website.
    Niel Faulkner has written an 'interesting' account of ww2 which was, apparently, an entirely imperialist conflict, which was marked by horrific massacres by the western powers and soviet union, while the Germans were simply attempting to regain a fair division of imperialist spoils. No holocaust, no death camps, no mass slaughter of Jews, slavs, gypsies, homosexuals etc. No mass terror of civilian populations ( except by the allies).
    There is a comments box, can anyone get something past the clusterfuck moderators?
     
  2. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    I followed the series up to about The End of Rome in the west but got so frustrated at it that i had to leave it. Will check the latest one out.
     
  3. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Steve Marriott RIP

    Oi barney-pig

    why not republish it as a blog with annotations. You could call it something like the trotskyist school of falsification
     
    Spanky Longhorn likes this.
  4. frogwoman

    frogwoman I welcome your experience

    Ah the "fascism is no worse than other types of capitalism" school of thought ...
     
  5. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Here is the piece.
     
  6. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Ok, first thing:

    Germany had never had a position of european dominance to restore.
     
    october_lost likes this.
  7. frogwoman

    frogwoman I welcome your experience

    Wow there's actually no mention of the holocaust or anything like that at all.
     
  8. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    I was so pissed off I forgot to post the link. It reaaly is dire.
     
  9. frogwoman

    frogwoman I welcome your experience

    There's nothing about what the Japanese were doing in Korea as well.
     
    Meltingpot likes this.
  10. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Mentions the Bengal famine though. Odd,
     
    october_lost likes this.
  11. barney_pig

    barney_pig Po-cha-na-quar-hip

    It's the sort of piece that got that nice Mr Irving into so much trouble.
     
  12. frogwoman

    frogwoman I welcome your experience

    Htf can you miss out the holocaust? Even if it was incidental to the aims of the Nazis during the war (i'd argue that it wasn't, at least in the latter stages of the war) it was still a pretty central part of what happened in WWII.
     
  13. Fedayn

    Fedayn Diffidati con noi

    I seem to remember reading the German economy being the most industrialised in Europe, perhaps that's what he was referring to?

    Evwen if so it's still a bit of a stretch to saying it had a position of European dominance.
     
  14. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    It wasn't though. It's a commonplace that has been trotted out in shoddy historiess like this for years . Adam Tooze destroys this myth in The Wages of Destruction that shows beyond a shadow of doubt that Germany was pretty much the modern day equivalent of a state like India.
     
  15. Fedayn

    Fedayn Diffidati con noi

    How does that explain the position of the SPD then given it was based on a heavily industrialised working class?!
     
  16. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    It wasn't - it was heavily based in the industrial areas and electorate. Which wasn't actually that widespread as the myth has it. The bulk of other production and support came from small scale manufacturies with a handful of people employed in them - and those people being paid peanuts and working on outdated machinery (i.e extensive exploitation rather than the true mark of capital, intensive exploitation). The idea of Germany as an industrial behemoth comes from the post-war years, not from the reality of germany in those years.
     
  17. Fedayn

    Fedayn Diffidati con noi

    I know it was 'centred' in the Ruhr/Westphalia areas but it was the largest party-votes wise-just before WW1... Might be worth having a better look at, i'll have a look I think.
     
  18. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    It sure was, but one of the way the myth got wheel was by equating an SPD vote/voter with industrial worker. They dominated that small section of the population but it remained a small section of the population. Traditional artisan stuff or classic peasantry was the order of the day.
     
  19. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Untermensch, and proud!

    I suspect the author is mistaking the speed of economic effect of German industrialisation for the volume of it. Also, Germany only patchily industrialised, mostly on it's western flank and spottily on it's eastern flank.

    Not even in any of the raw materials it produced.
     
    Spanky Longhorn likes this.
  20. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Untermensch, and proud!

    With almost as shoddy a system of land inheritance, too, which didn't help the economy or productivity.
     
  21. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Untermensch, and proud!

    Yep. Berlin, for example, was massively productive between the wars, but more than half of that came from "cottage production" of the watchmaker type.
     
  22. Red Storm

    Red Storm M14

    The entire article was only 1400 words long, so it was never going to be any good.

    I don't really see what made it a "Marxist history", the only bit of it which was arguably Marxist was the final paragraph:

    And this rests on the 'state capitalist' thesis.
     
    frogwoman likes this.
  23. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Not to defend the article in general, but I'd say that it was fairly dominant in the years immediately following the Franco-Prussian war, at least in a military sense.
     
    grit, Lock&Light and Red Storm like this.
  24. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    It was among the leading powers but it wasn't ever really dominant apart from a short period following victory in the Franco-Prussian war - and even militarily this was only in a limited sense, bolstered by (or more accurately, circumscribed by) GB's reluctance to get involved on the continent following the Crimean war - militarily they were totally hemmed in by and at the mercy of the British Navy and Empire. Industrially they were a relative backwater - which makes the claim that Faulkner (who i have a lot of time for generally) rests his shoddy argument of European dominance on ("Germany was not backward at all: it was the greatest industrial power in Europe.") even more shaky. They were going to war precisely because of their lack of dominance.
     
  25. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    I'm certainly no expert on the economic history of Germany, and I haven't actually read the Wages of Destruction, so I'm reluctant to start pulling opinions about it out of my arse.
     
  26. JimW

    JimW 支那暗杀团

    Perhaps he meant the Holy Roman Empire? That was top dog for a few centuries IIRC.
     
    Random likes this.
  27. ResistanceMP3

    ResistanceMP3 www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk

    I haven't read the article, and I'm sure your rendition of it is somewhat cartoonesque, but it sounds like a pretty reasonable analysis to me. Is there a better 1400 word analysis you have in mind?

    PS I quite liked his stuff in the past on the fall of the Roman Empire. So, I may be biased.. lol
     
  28. Spanky Longhorn

    Spanky Longhorn CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN

    If only some of the other posters on here heeded that advice.
     
  29. ResistanceMP3

    ResistanceMP3 www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk

    Did he say that? :eek: he must have changed his views a lot then.
     
  30. frogwoman

    frogwoman I welcome your experience

    nah he didn't say that at all, i said that before I'd read the article. but it's a kind of "marxism" i've come across before, mostly on revleft lol
     

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