6 from "gang of more than 40" who lured police into riot ambush sentenced

wasn't aimed at you in particular - just those who seem to see something progressive in the activities of those involved

when i say individualistic i wasn't referring to the organisation of it, i was referring to the motives of it, which on the whole were extremely individualistic - even looters weren't safe from other looters on those nights, as i said in the original post, not even any collective solidarity amongst the looters - just everyone for themselves

why - i'm talking about what I think is a fairly new phenomena - the august riots were in my mind one of the more tangible manifestations of it. there have been plenty other, low level manifestations of it in terms of generalised anti-social crime by those who don't mind shitting on their own communities. Maybe we will see more, maybe not.

Not sure i've ever said anything that would give the slightest hint of believing in (b) - you're not mixing me up with Hegel's Prussia by any chance?

No such paper - there is a Mail and a Post in B'ham but not a Telegraph. I presume the reference was to the Daily Telegraph.

i don't disagree with the thrust of what you say - the point is if progressive working class politics is ever going to be in a position to do the type of things you say, it needs to build up it's own confidence, ambition, capacity and desire - all things that are constantly eroded by the impact/activities of the type of people we're talking about - so something at some point has to give if things are ever going to change. It's not easy I know.

As for practical examples of helping to channel anger into a productive path - i'd point you to initiatives like the IWCA Athletics Club which was setup to do exactly the thing you say - reaching out to youth from working class communities who may otherwise end up going down a non-productive path (i don't like that phrase, but am using it as that was what you used) and getting them involved in sport within the wider context of working class self organisation within the community, for the community. The politics don't get rammed down their throats from top down, it feeds in organically from the activity and organisation on the ground

I'm not aware of any other such projects by the left or anarchists that are making an attempt to do exactly what you suggest (if you are I would be interested in finding out about them). So I do find it odd that a common criticism of the IWCA approach on here from the left/anarchists always seems to be about the IWCA writing off people (particular youngsters) and therefore leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy - as the IWCA seems to be the only organisation that is actively doing things on the ground to try and provide a more productive/progressive outlet for working class kids. A lot of people on here talk about the need for such things, the IWCA are doing them.

i don't think so. It is I thought fairly basic marxism and anrchism that man's character is deformed under capitalism and a more perfect human will emerge under a better mode of production.

Easton cowboys doing something similar in bristol - though there is clear division between domestic and international stuff (the latter stuff happening for good reason though members professional links and expertise in water stuff, whatever the term is and so on). Not read thread for last few days so just a passing comment for now.

there's a difference between saying a 'more perfect' human has the potential to emerge under a different set of social relations which is what you say above and something I agree with (although i don't really like the term perfect in any usage but I think I know what you mean by it) and saying 'that man is perfectible' which was what you originally said and attributed to me as having such a belief, which to be clear i don't

Perfect? What does that mean?

It took us a long time to get here, but basically it means me.

God help us all.

i think the athletics club is an brilliant initiative - puts me in mind of the old clarion cycling clubs. Plus there's the easton cowboys/cowgirls who seem to have a pretty impressive set up. You could do a friendly tournament with them.

There was the old loony left football tournament in london a few years back (which fielded a urban 75 team) and bradford's 1 in 12 club used to organise mayday football tournaments, probably still field a team, although the iwca thing seems a lot more connected to the community.

Easton cowboys/cowgirls http://eastoncowboys.org.uk/
Loony left http://www.urban75.org/football/loony05.html

sorr

sorry , had to post from phone and from memory. The truth is out there though

Did the community protest about the ending of your service or did negotiate for another provider?

Nah,more a bleary eyed attempt at highlighting pickmans, no questions asked, fetishisation of these individuals as some sort of working class folk heroes."A quite large body of men..." still cracks me up

i retired, fed up of the life of a petit bourgeois. there is only so much sitting around talking about koi ponds a person can stand.

valued customers.........

suppliers.

May I suggest you go and start your own thread? Or go find the Renegades one and read that.

haha, cmon, keep it sensible ffs, I'm about as representative of "the left today " as you are of a new kind of right.

Of course you may...

Plenty of things impinge on the ability of the working class to be confident, adept at organising and on the ascendant. That the IWCA pushes the line of attacking those it deems lumpen in our midst shows more than simple laziness (in it's utter lack of actions against the ruling class), it shows an unpleasant race to the bottom in a (forlorn) hope of gaining a small electoral advantage.

I won't subscribe to this at all.

you seem to be having a problem not only putting some coherent thoughts together but actually writing them down also, although i suppose the later is a consequence of the former (your post 349 makes my eyes bleed - mixture of screaming capital letters, misplaced quotes, disjointed text and hatstand rhetoric ).

Might be worth responding to people in the traditional manner, i.e. quote them and respond to that quote - if you want to actually get anywhere in discussing any of this

as for your point about 'the clue is in "MUCH MORE HOSTILE' (your caps not mine) - you appear unable to make sense of basic english here - i'll take you through it one more time if you promise to calm down and actually read what is written and not go jumping about all hysterical like

I said:-

i.e. - the instinctes/values/aspirations of those that we are talking about are much more hostile to progressive working class politics & w/c communities than any other type of politics & section of society (i.e. their activity is much more damaging to progressive working class politics than it is damaging to capitalist social relations). How you get from this to a meaning where I infer that this behaviour is much more or much less detrimental than capitalist social relations writ large, I have no idea - i'm talking about who suffers the most from the behaviour/activity of these kind of anti-social low rent neoliberals - not where it stands in relation to things that also make people's life shit - both the quote itself and the wider context of the post you took it from makes this clear

not even a free first month subscription?

The IWCA have withdrawn from elecotral politics as a tactic for the foreseeable future so not sure why you can put this as a motivation (and since the dealing with the renegades article was published a couple of years ago the IWCA have not contested an election, so again you seem to be at sea with your inferred motivations there)

Also as mentioned previously, the IWCA appear to be the only political organisation who are actually doing what people here say should be done - i.e. reaching out to disaffected working class youth and looking to provide an outlet for energies that can be used in a more healthy & progressive way (IWCA Athletics club etc..)

So to categorise the IWCA approach as laziness when most of the left/anarchism only get as far as talking about a lot about this stuff but actually do nothing is pretty rich

They were well known members of The Raiders street gang with links to the Johnson Crew. They don't pack bags in Tesco at the weekend for charity.

They murder people.

Not often though, it interrupts business.

genuine lols at the pure withering dryness of your first point, am rubbish at quoting, and have had the odd football related drink, point taken.

I'm guessing you already know where the misinterpretation of the key part came from, ie : a possibly missing " TO on your part, which would have changed the meaning clearly to something very few of us could argue with :

"the instinctes/values/aspirations of those that we are talking about are much more hostile to progressive working class politics & w/c communities than "TO " any " other type of politics & section of society"

Tbf ld, I misinterpreted you too. It wasn't written very clearly.

Loads of political organisations try to reach out to disaffected youth. It's been going on since, well way before I was young.

The full post of mine, from which cantsin took that sentence from was this:-

while i accept that the first sentence taken in isolation could be read in two different ways - when taking together with the rest of the post (and given the post as a whole was written as a single point) I can't see how it can be taken to mean anything other than what I said it means - the second sentence that follows it makes it clear that the post is talking about the relative impact of anti-social crime/behaviour on the working class and capitalist social relations -

The post itself was in response to VP quoting my point about 'they are already fighting against us' - so again taken in context I can't see why there is confusion as to what the point being discussed was

Even Violent Panda, who is a strict grammar mistress replied to my post in full and said he agreed with the first sentence - so I can only assume that the meaning as I intended it was clear to him when he took the time to reply to my post in full, rather than just taking a selected quote from it

So while as I accept, when taking that selected quote out of context it could be read as having two quite diferent meanings, taken in context of the discussion it was part off and also the wider post in which it was lifted from, I can't see how it can come across as meaning anything other than what I said it means.

There's absolutely nothing in the context of the discussion or the post itself to suggest I was making a point about the relative detrimental impacts of anti-social beahaviour/crime AND capitalist social relation ON working class politics/communities - the point was clearly about the relative detrimental impacts of anti-social behaviour/crime ON working class politics/communities AND capitalist social relations

maybe we can now get back to the issue itself?